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有关中国,拉丁美洲和环境的10件事情

2015-01-05 11:54 我要评论(0)

关键词:拉丁美洲 中国 事情 有关 环境

核心提示:新书谈论了拉丁美洲存在的中国公司,而这些公司主要集中在对环境造成最严重破坏的部门

New book argues Chinese firms’ presence in Latin America focuses on the most environmentally-damaging sector

新书谈论了拉丁美洲存在的中国公司,而这些公司主要集中在对环境造成最严重破坏的部门

Question: when did contemporary political and media debate start on China’s “entry” into the Western hemisphere? 

Answer: January 1997, when Panama awarded concessions to a Chinese company to operate port facilities on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts at both ends of the Panama Canal, just after having obtained control of it from the US.

问题:当代政治和新闻媒体从何时开始辩论中国“进入”西半球?回答:是1997年1月,当时巴拿马把巴拿马运河在太平洋和大西洋两端的港口设施交给一家中国公司运营,那时巴拿马刚刚从美国那里获得巴拿马运河的控制权。

Question: when did Latin America and the Caribbean wake up to its dramatically expanding new relationship with China?

Answer: November 2004, when the then Chinese president Hu Jintao visited Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Cuba and apparently spoke of the possibility of investing US$100 billion in the region – although the Chinese government later claimed it had been mistranslated and the US$100 billion referred to bilateral trade.

问题:拉丁美洲和加勒比海岸何时开始认识到要和中国大力的发展新关系?

回答:2004年11月,当中国国家主席胡锦涛访问阿根廷、巴西、智利和古巴时,似乎讨论了在这一地区投资1000亿美元的可能性——尽管中国政府后来指出这是翻译失误,这1000亿美元指的是双边贸易额。

That, at least, is what Evan Ellis, a researcher at the U.S. Army War College and considered by some to be a leading expert on China-Latin America relations, states in his new book China on the Ground in Latin America: Challenges for the Chinese and Impacts on the Region. Ellis’s main argument is that in the last few years the Chinese have started to establish a new, “significant” physical presence in Latin America and the Caribbean – following trade deals, acquisitions, loans and loan-backed construction projects, among other things. As a result, Ellis argues that China now finds itself, for the first time in its 5,000 year history, connected to however many million non-Chinese people in other countries and dependent on the “success and well-being of its commercial representatives in distant parts of the world.”

While the focus of his book is Chinese acquisitions, loans, other commercial dealings and the challenges these pose for the Chinese government, companies and Chinese people living in Latin America, Ellis has various things to say about the environment. Here are 10 – some of which you may agree with, others you may not – I picked out: Evan Ellis,

美国陆军学院研究员,是研究中国-拉美关系的知名专家。情况至少像这位专家在它的新书《中国在拉美大陆:中国的挑战和对拉美的影响》里说的大抵相同。他的主要观点是,最近几年,伴随着中国在这个区域的一系列的贸易,兼并,贷款和承揽基于贷款的建设工程,中国已经开始在拉美和加勒比地区建立新的“令人瞩目”的实际存在,另外还有其他的影响。因此,Ellis认为中国现在已经意识到,她在5000年的历史中从未与其他国家的如此众多非华裔群体产生过这么紧密的联系,而且依赖于这些遥远地方的商业代表们的成功和幸福。 虽然这本书的重点是阐述中国在拉美的兼并,贷款和其他商业贸易活动,以及国政府,企业和在拉美生活的中国人面临的挑战。但是Ellis对环境问题也谈了不少看法。我从中挑出来10条,让大家可以根据自己的理解去判断。

1 Chinese companies have focused on developing their physical presence in Latin America in the sectors that are most likely to generate environmental impacts and concerns: petroleum, mining and agriculture. The Chinese presence in petroleum is most significant in Venezuela, Ecuador and Argentina, and in mining in Ecuador and Peru.

2 Resistance from “environmentalists and local communities” is one of the major challenges facing Chinese companies trying to make acquisitions and win contracts in Latin America. To date, projects involving Chinese investors have “often” been “opposed on environmental grounds, or because of their impact on local communities and indigenous groups,” writes Ellis, citing the Chone dam project and Mirador mine in Ecuador, the Belo Monte dam in Brazil, the Rio Blanco mine in Peru, the Lupe mine in Mexico, a soy processing facility in Rio Negro in Argentina, the Agua Zarca dam project in Honduras, and the River Magdalena in Colombia as examples. 

1,中国企业只专于发展他们在拉美的实际存在,他们关注的领域大部分都可能产生让人担忧的环境问题,比如石油,采矿和农业。中国在拉美的石油产业主要分布在委内瑞拉,厄瓜多尔和阿根廷,而采矿业的重点分布在厄瓜多尔和秘鲁。

2,来自环保人士和当地社区的抗议是中国企业在拉美开展并购和承揽项目时,面临的最大挑战。迄今为止,涉及中国资本的项目经常遭遇搁浅,要么因为环境原因遭到反对,要么由于对当地社区和土著群体产生了不利影响。Ellis在书中援引了下面的几个项目:厄瓜多尔的Chone水坝工程和米拉多尔采矿工程,巴西的贝洛蒙特水坝工程,秘鲁的里约布兰科采矿工程,墨西哥的卢佩采矿工程,阿根廷的尼格罗大豆加工厂工程,洪都拉斯Agua Zarca水坝工程以及哥伦比亚的马格达莱纳河工程。

3 Opposition to Chinese projects on environmental grounds is “likely to expand in the future because of the number of potential projects. . . that involve environmentally sensitive areas.” These include plans to develop Goat Island, Jamaica, into an “international shipping hub” and the exploitation of the Ishpingo, Tambococha and Tiputini (ITT) oil fields in the far east of the Yasuní National Park in Ecuador where Ellis says the “Chinese corporations who have already done the exploratory drilling are the leading contenders” to win contracts. Indeed, Ellis states that although “no official link” exists between ITT and the construction of a new refinery on Ecuador’s Pacific coast, “a senior Ecuadorian source speaking off-the-record suggested that the granting of the rights for ITT may be a condition pursued by the Chinese for the funding of the Refinery. . . which would be fed by the petroleum extracted there.” 

3,涉及自然保护区的潜在项目有很多,因而中国承揽的项目因为环境原因遭到反对的情况很在未来会越来越普遍。潜在的项目包括牙买加公羊岛国际航运中心项目和厄瓜多尔亚苏尼国家公园远东ITT(Ishpingo, Tambococha and Tiputini )油田项目。关于后者,Ellis提到,一家中国企业已经实施可行性钻探,并且是项目的主要竞争者。事实上,Ellis说,尽管ITT 和在厄瓜多尔海岸新建炼油厂之间不存在官方联系,但是一位厄瓜多尔高层人士曾非正式表示,中国可能会根据ITT油田项目的中标情况来决定是否给这个炼油厂出资,而在将来这个炼油厂的用油将会来自ITT油田。

4 Environmental concerns are a major challenge for Chinese companies not because they are “inherently less respectful of the environment” than others, but “because of a confluence of factors” including the high environmental impacts of the sectors they are focusing on, a “cultural distance” between Chinese and Latin American people, and Chinese companies’ lack of experience in the region. One example: “Chinese executives and managers often presume that local authorities will be able to force local residents to comply with decisions to relocate their homes. . . and may mistakenly presume that, as long as they have reached an agreement with the appropriate government authorities, the local communities and other actors will comply with the decisions.”

5 “Environmental complaints” have already been made about various ongoing Chinese projects. These include the Marcona mine in Peru run by the company Shougang, the Cerro Maimon mine in the Dominican Republic, and the Sierra Grande mine in Argentina. 

4,环境问题成为中国企业的最大挑战并不是因为中国“一贯忽视环境保护”而是由于一系列其它因素共同决定的,比如,这些项目本身就是高污染产业,中国人和拉美人之间存在文化差异,以及中国公司在本地的经验不足。举个例子:中国企业的高管经常认为,官方能强制让当地人搬迁,并且错误的认为摆平了政府官员,当地的社区和其它人士就会乖乖就范。

5,各种各样的中国在建项目都会遭到环保方面的投诉,比如首钢在秘鲁马尔科纳的采矿项目,多明尼亚的Cerro Maimon采矿项目以及阿根廷的赛拉格兰德采矿项目。

6 Chinese companies “have made efforts to improve their environmental practices where they have felt it necessary to do so, in order to avoid problems with governments and communities.” Ellis cites new technology by company Bosai to address dust problems caused by bauxite mining in Guyana as one example, and ten “environmental protection projects oriented toward wastewater, dust and air pollution” at the Marcona mine in Peru as another.

7 Offshore drilling by Chinese companies in Latin America and the Caribbean is particularly risky in terms of environmental impacts because “they are relatively new to producing and using deepwater drilling technology.” Ellis argues that Chinese operations are “arguably even more vulnerable to such risks” than was BP before the Deepwater Horizon Gulf of Mexico blowout in 2010.

8 Although “many [Chinese companies in Latin America] do behave badly” – either “due to a combination of willful imposition of Chinese norms and practices that do not function well in the new context, or accidentally, due to a lack of knowledge regarding local norms” – they “do not inherently behave worse than their Western counterparts” (Ellis’s italics). 

6,中国公司不想和当地政府和社区产生纠葛,开始意识到有必要做出改变,他们已经正在环境保护方面进行努力。Ellis举了2个例子,中国的博赛公司就采用了一项新的技术来控制圭亚那一家铝土矿场产生的灰尘污染。而在秘鲁马尔康那矿厂,针对其产生的废水,尘土和空气污染,兴建了10个环保项目。 

7,中国企业在拉美和加勒比地区的近海钻探队环境带来的影响更令人担心,Ellis说,因为他们还是最近才开始使用这样的深水钻探技术,英国石油公司承接的墨西哥湾深水地平线工程在2010年出现大面积泄露,而中国企业的操作事实上比之前英国石油公司的做法更加冒险。

8,尽管许多中国的企业在拉美的表现差强人意,或是因为中国这种任性专横的观念和做法在新的大陆水土不服,或是偶尔地对当地的法律法规不甚了解,但是他们本质并不比西方同行的公司做得差。

9 A “significant portion” of the new Chinese presence in Latin America is in the renewable energy sector where companies “have been a key force in the “green revolution” transforming the energy generation mix” and “slowly moving the electricity infrastructure of the region away from fossil fuels.” Ellis states that “of the many projects and acquisitions by Chinese firms in the electricity generation sector. . . only a very small number have involved traditional fossil fuel power generation facilities”, with a focus instead on hydroelectric and what Ellis calls a “wave of new solar and wind power projects” across Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Ecuador and Mexico.

10 What better way to end than with one particularly emblematic example and startling claim? Despite a January 2014 announcement that work would begin on a canal through Nicaragua by the end of this year or early 2015, “as this book went to press, a public announcement regarding the route to be taken by the canal had not been made, nor had any information been made public regarding environmental impact” (my italics, this time). Indeed, a report published in September by the Alexander von Humboldt Studies Centre in Nicaragua states that “technical information of environmental character generated during the design, construction and operation of the Great Canal and associated projects will remain confidential,” under the terms of the concession agreement. Von Humboldt calls the canal – due to be built by the Hong Kong-based HK Nicaragua Canal Development Investment Company – and associated infrastructure the biggest environmental threat to the country in its history.

9,很大一部分中国企业在拉美从事可再生能源领域的项目,这些企业是本地开展“绿色改革”的关键力量,他们在此发展混合能源发电,使本区域内电力基础设施逐步摆脱对化石能源的依赖,Ellis说,在中国企业在电力领域的许多项目和并购中更加专注于建设水电,以及他口中所说的一系列新型太阳能和风能发电项目,只有很小一部分涉及传统化石燃料发电。新的能源项目广泛分布在阿根廷,巴西,智利,哥斯达黎加,厄瓜多尔和墨西哥。 

10,那么什么样的极具代表的例子或者发人深省的陈词可以作为结束语呢?恐怕只有这个2014年1月发布公告了,其中声明尼加拉瓜运河将要在本年末或是2015年初开工。直到我的新书发往出版社时,有关运河路线以及环境影响评估的官方声明还没出炉。事实上,亚历山大•冯•洪堡研究中心已经在9月公布了一个报告。报告称,大运河和附属工程在设计,施工和运营过程中会对环境特征产生影响,而这些技术信息在特许协议的约束下将会处于保密状态。洪堡研究中心称,这条由香港尼加拉瓜运河发展投资公司承建的大运河以及运河相关基础设施将会对尼加拉瓜的环境产生前所未有的巨大威胁。

以下是英国网友评论:

★Items 2-5 apply to Chinese activities in Canada and very much so; it's not like environmental and indigenous opposition is limited to Latin America. Point taken re No. 8 though, Canadian mining companies are ever bit as culpable in Latin America (or Canada) as China is anywhere. 

第2到5条,中国在加拿大的做法极为相同,环保人士和本地人的反对并不局限于拉美,针对第8条,驻拉美的加拿大矿业公司绝不像中国公司那样不招人待见! 

The Guardian should start covering Canada to the same degree they cover Australia, with an Australian bureau. That our national politics barely gets covered while domestic state politics in Oz get covered regularly is just odd...... 

卫报应该多报道一些加拿大的新闻,起码把加拿大要放在和澳大利亚一样的位置,要知道他们在澳大利亚还专门设置了一个部门。我们国内的政策卫报很少报道,而有关澳大利亚国内政策的报道却能频繁上头条,真是奇了怪了。 

The Earth needs a break from human behaviour. At what point do we say 'we have raped the planet to the furthest extent that we intend' - if lovers of drilling and big business can answer that single point - show me that greed has a break then their arguments will appear more sane and rational. Alas the truth is that greed does not have a break and in the coming corporate world there simply will be no central power able to stop anything, the greed of millions of individuals will BE the 'Government' and it guarantees total destruction of this planet. 

地球已经受够了人类的暴行,它需要休息。什么时候我们才能心满意足的说,我们已经把地球折腾够了-只有当这些在地球上钻孔的狂热者和商人能回答这个问题时候-让我知道他们的贪欲已经得到满足的时候,或许上述的言论才算能算是合理和正常。 哎,事实上这些贪婪的人永远得不到满足,在这个越来越商业化的世界上,没有什么力量可以阻挡他们分毫,因为这些无数的贪婪的个体组成了“政府”,而政府又把地球许诺给他们,让他们尽情破坏。 

An unsurprising selection of 10 things this blogger wants to tell us. It's interesting that he believes green lobby groups will be one of the big obstacles to the success of these important projects. If true, this suggests that the development of these areas could be far easier than many imagine. The benefits of this development, both at the local level and the national level, can be tremendous. Let's hope they are achieved. 

博主在第10段告诉我们的东西真有创意。他竟然相信这样的环保游说团体是如此重要项目的障碍之一。假如是真的话,这个地区的发展岂不要比大多数人的想象简单的多了。不管是局地还全国都会在这个地区的开发中受益,并且受益匪浅,让我们拭目以待吧。

it is so little news about environmental protest against Lynas australian firm in malaysia despite there are mass protest for several times. 

尽管发生了几次大规模抗议,澳大利亚莱纳斯公司在马来西亚受到环保人士抗议的新闻也就稀松平常了。

so called protest funded by the western power this is what the western media cant say because press freedom dont exist in the west it is so rare to hear any protest about environmental issue against western company. as if western company had better credibility? what happen to india? Bhopal: Tragedy lives on 

西方媒体不会说给你们那些所谓的抗议团体是西方势力扶植的,因为西方根本没有新闻自由,这就是为什么没有什么人就环保问题抗议西方企业的原因,弄得好像是西方企业名声很好似的。看看印度博帕那个惨剧吧(毒气泄漏,3000+人死亡,全球最严重的工业灾难) 

if The Guardian covered Canadian domestic politics to the same degree they do for Australia, there'd be lots of such coverage because of the number of battlefronts on environmental/native issues; but even so the Guardian has covered the Mount Polley mine disaster in British Columbia (though not much followup) and the ravages of Canadian mining companies in Central America and Eritrea. 

如果卫报要像在澳大利亚似的那样对加拿大进行报道,加拿大这么多的环保的或者民族的问题岂不把人家版面挤爆。尽管如此,卫报还是报道了卑诗省(加拿大西部省)波莉山矿难(报道的媒体不多)和加拿大矿业公司在中美和厄立特里亚(非洲)事故的有关新闻。 

You don't get much coverage of these in mainstream Canadian media, which is corporate-allied of course; Guardian articles on the same issues are generally better-covered.......which is why I wish they'd do a Canadian edition, as our own media are all bootlickers and pander to the corporate line. But even THEY cover protests against western companies, though usually trying to make the protestors look bad. 

你在加拿大主流媒体上看不见这些报道,因为这些媒体和事故单位是企业联盟。而卫报对这些事故进行了充分的报道,这就是我希望卫报发行一个加拿大版本。我们的这些媒体全都是拍马屁和他们联盟的皮条客。需要注意的是即使卫报刊登针对西方公司抗议的报道,他们也会让这些抗议不那么那看。

Is the Guardian Environment finally opening up to the possibility that not everything from PR China is manna from the Green Heaven? 

卫报的环境专栏终于意识中国产品并不都是来自绿色天堂的甘露了么?

China respects nothing. They polluted much of their farmland and 40% of their water. Dead pigs come floating down China's rivers. Thousands upon thousands of fish died as, there was amonia in the rivers. 

中国简直无所顾忌,他们污染了大部分耕地以及40%的水。他们的水里漂着死猪,水里含有大量的氨毒死了成千上万的鱼。 

PM Harper sold Canada to China with his FIPPA deal. This means China will take Canada over for, a minimum of 31 years. PM Harper's Omnibus Bill means China is permitted to sue Canada if, anyone tries to block Communist China's takeover. Harper has said, Canadian tax payers will pay for China's lawsuits. 45,000 more Chinese were suing to get into BC. We all know we will never get China out of Canada. China can't even feed themselves and Canada will likely be, a polluted wasteland as China is. 

我们的首相哈珀通过他的FIPPA协定把加拿大卖给了中国,这就意味着中国将要统治加拿大至少31年。他的综合法案允许中国可以起诉任何发对中共统治不满的加拿大人。哈珀说加拿大纳税人还要付给中国诉讼费。4万5千多中国人申请进入BC(卑诗省可能是前文的British Columbia)我们清楚我们永远不能把他们赶走。中国甚至不能养活自己,加拿大最后要变成中国那样成为污染的废土。 

China has another project in the Alberta tar sands. Petro-China has put in a bid, to build the Enbridge pipeline into BC. However, the battle rages and the gall of it all, the people of BC don't even get the jobs. China takes those too. There has just been another series of pipeline bursts. Does that stop the greed? Not on your nelly. 

中国在阿尔博塔油砂地还有一个项目,中石油已经投标要修建通向卑诗省的Enbridge 石油管道。尽管当地人勇敢的进行了激烈的反对,最后却落得丢了工作的下场。中国人把工作都抢走了。在那里还出现了管道爆裂,但是能阻止这些贪心的人么?别傻了。

Again you seem very confused. Here you are on the China page deluding yourself China gets a positive press in the Guardian. Its constant rotten cherry picking (and lazily) off the China press to paint the place as rotten. You very rarely see a positive story selected from the same sources at all. Do continue with your pro China Guardian fantasy. 

你好像又被忽悠了,你现在看的是中国版面,这才让你感觉卫报发表了有关中国的积极言论,这只是从中国新闻里摘出来的烂樱桃用来粉饰这个烂地方。你从同一地方根本看不到任何积极的一面。 继续做你的卫报会偏袒中国的白日梦吧

As well as China has marked its presence in Africa,Latin America is at prey to Chinese,because Latin Americans,with possible exceptions for Chile,Argentina and Uruguay,suffer the same difficulties in giving liberty to its entrepreneurs to create and to expand themselves. 

就像中国在非洲彰显的存在一样,拉美就是中国的下一个猎物。因为拉美国家,可能出了智利,阿根廷,和乌拉圭之外,都不能给他们当地的企业创造自由的环境,让他们在其中壮大。 

Don't forget dams. China has a love affair with dams, financing them not just around South America, but in Asia and Africa, too. http://www.internationalrivers.org/campaigns/chinese-dams-in-africa Dams cause enormous damage to the environment, much of it unknowable until they do the damage. Look at the Pacific Northwest of the USA, with beautiful rivers turned into industrial tools. Breeding salmon in farms, just like nature intended. 

别忘了还有水坝,那才是中国的最爱,中国不仅在南美出资兴建水坝,也在亚洲和非洲投资建设。去看一下这个报道http://www.internationalrivers.org/campaigns/chinese-dams-in-africa,水坝会对环境造成巨大破坏,这些破坏大多数不为人知道直到破坏出现人们才会意识到。看看美国太平洋西南区域,那里原本美丽的河流被改造成工业玩偶,他们在农场里饲养鲑鱼,看似是自然养殖。

Some dams cam at too great a cost, but you think wind farms are ugly, dams unnatural, photovoltaic cost-effective, same with biofuel that's better used to feed people than cars.

How the hell do you want to power the world when oil runs out? Are you so enamoured with natural romanticism you want to revert to the stone ages?

一些水坝看上去太贵了,但是你却认为风力田很丑,水坝不自然,光电经济合算,用于制造生物燃料的作物用来供给人们比给车更好。你他妈到底想在石油耗尽后用什么来为世界提供能源?你当真这么迷恋自然浪漫主义,打算回到石器时代吗? 

By reducing demand for power. By eliminating the private car, a symbol of inequality and an environmental disaster no matter the propulsion system.

Most westerners use much more power than they should or need to use. No modern house should need a furnace or air conditioning system, but 99.9% of them have such primitive systems, because building technology, unlike almost all other technology, has not changed much since the 19th century.

I live high in the mountains at over 8500 feet, or about 2600 meters. Yet I rarely have to turn heat on in my house, because of good siting with regards to the sun and good construction. With slightly better construction, I never would have to heat the house.

The same holds true for large buildings, which use massive heating and cooling systems, which good design would eliminate.

We waste over 90% of the energy we use.

随着能源需求的减少,私家车的淘汰,不平等和环境灾难就不会继续。

大多数西方人使用了比他们必需使用的多得多的能源。非现代的房子需要一个火炉或空调,但是其中99.9%的房子因为建筑技术导致一个落后的系统,不像其他技术那样,这些技术自从19世纪后就没什么改进。

我住在一座超过8500英尺(大约2600米)的山上。至少我很少必须在我的屋里打开供暖器,只要你房子坐落的方向注意面向太阳并且有很好的建造结构。因为有稍微好点的建造结构,我从不需要去加热房子。

事实上对大量需要供暖和制冷系统的建筑来说,使用好的设计就能解决这些问题。

我们浪费了90%我们使用的能源。

All of this talk and complain about enviromental is stupid. Industrialisation always bad for environment, but not doing it then u don't get any works and money. Just set rules and environment standard law.

所有关于环境的废话和抱怨都很愚蠢。工业化一直都是对环境有害的,但是不做这些你就不能得到工作和薪水。只需要设置规则和环境法就行。

Your comment demonstrates a failure to appreciate that without a healthy ecosystem life on Earth- including human- dies. Among the consequences of taking down a few hundred species each day, and a mushrooming human population that swells by 80 million every year; at some point, we are the species we take into the abyss. The vanishing point draws nearer every day. Our response: More toys. Burn all fossil fuels. Clear-cut the rain forests. Strip-mine the soil. Pollute the water. Foul the air. Go shopping. And, most importantly, figure out how we can make a few more bucks as the world burns.

你们的评论证明你们未意识到,如果没有一个健康的生态系统,地球上的生命都将死亡,包括人类自己。在每年都有近百种物种消失同时,剧烈膨胀的人口却增加8千万。同样的,我们也是在自取灭亡的物种。我们灭亡的那一天也越来越近。而我们又在做什么:制造更多玩具,燃烧所有化石燃料,砍伐热带雨林,露天开采,毒化水源,污染空气,到处购物消费,更重要的是当世界在走向毁灭时,还在想尽办法去赚钱赚钱。

What is it with NED / CIA type tactics that can so undermine sympathy? Colour revolutions, umbrella revolutions. As soon as these silly symbols appear you can just switch off. Oh look, they've got umbrellas. The CCP must be shaking at the knees.

I doubt very much in that country (the photo) the NED is involved, but referencing the NED tutored idea of a silly anti China symbol against an extremely restrained by US standards police response is just daft. I know, you don't need to say it, its just me.

国家民主基金会(NED)或中央情报局(CIA)的摧毁和谐统一的典型战术是什么?颜色革命,雨伞革命(香港的一个组织发起的)。一旦这些愚蠢的标志出现,就能抽身事外了。看吧,他们已经开始举着雨伞抗议了,共产党一定吓得膝盖只打哆嗦。

我很怀疑对那个国家目前的情况,NED是否真的牵扯其中。但是,如果你认为NED支持发起的反中国的主意和美国标准的警方回应是互相矛盾的,那真是愚蠢。我知道,你不必同意这些,但我就是这么认为的。

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